This is a transcript of the Spur of the Moment episode “Keeping kids healthy with safe water, toilets, and hygiene with Cindy Kushner.” It is provided as a courtesy and may contain errors.

Cindy Kushner: We’re always trying to do the best we can to say what is the level that people need to thrive, not just survive.

Jocelyn Hittle: Hello, and welcome to CSU’s “Spur of the Moment”, the podcast of Colorado State University’s Spur Campus in Denver, Colorado.

Cindy Kushner: Now, if we can make sure that people do have the water they need for all their household needs, but also their community gardens, or if they have livestock, making sure their livestock can have enough water to drink, then you can really start talking about change, and you can, people can have economic opportunities instead of spending five hours a day walking to get water, because there’s one borehole really far away.

Jocelyn Hittle: On this podcast, we talk with experts in food, water, and health and learn about their current work and their career journeys. Today, I’m joined by Cindy Kushner, Chief of Climate Resilient Water Sanitation and Hygiene at UNICEF. Cindy has had a varied career with much of it focused internationally on water, sanitation, and hygiene issues. Welcome, Cindy.

Cindy Kushner: Thank you so much, and thanks for having me.

Jocelyn Hittle: Absolutely happy to have you. I’d like to start a little with the term water, sanitation and hygiene, or WASH. What is encompassed in that term WASH?

Cindy Kushner: Water is something that is used for so many different things and ways, but what we’re focused on in UNICEF, and my work is on drinking water and water for domestic use. So first and foremost, making sure that it is safe for drinking. It is available, which is not always a given, unfortunately, particularly in the places that we work. And sanitation is, it means something broader, but fundamentally at its core it means toilets for us and making sure people have, again, safe, dignified places to use a toilet instead of kind of picking up technology and saying it’s a toilet, the way that we know in the US. It’s about a place that can really separate the human waste from human contact, and if that opens up more, more technological options, more affordable options for different environments, and different places, and different economies. And then hygiene is primarily, again, it’s a very broad term, but we’re talking about hand washing with soap and water and making sure you can do that everywhere you need to, as well as menstrual hygiene management, because girls and women very fundamentally need to ensure that they have the information and the resources, the facilities, the products that they need to manage their menstruation. And if we don’t have that, then we, we don’t have adequate hygiene, particularly for girls and women.

Jocelyn Hittle: Great, thank you. So, can we talk a little bit about where you are working? So, you’ve hit on these WASH areas, safe and available drinking water, sanitation, hand washing, menstrual sanitation. Where are you focused on those different topics, and can you describe a few of the challenges that you are particularly focused on addressing?

Cindy Kushner: Sure, so I’m currently working in Zimbabwe, which is a country in southern Africa, about 15 million people, give or take. It’s been a while since we had a census. There was just one, so we’re waiting for those results. Zimbabwe is one of the most climate vulnerable countries in the world. Some people may have heard, in 2019, there was Cyclone Idai, which was very destructive, particularly in Mozambique, but also very much in Zimbabwe and a few of the surrounding countries. So there’s an increasing intensity and frequency of cyclones, which is sort of what they call a hurricane in the southern hemisphere, but a lot more storms and ferocious storms and heavy rains as well. It’s not just the cyclone. And those, those heavy rains, you know, break through rivers, wash communities out, wash water systems out, schools, healthcare facilities, and they destroy roads, bridges. And so, there’s always an effort to make sure that we are not only able to respond when those things happen, but also try to be more aware of those risks when we’re building things in the first place, and we’re putting in place what needs to be managed and how we need to have warnings and things like that so that we’re really doing all we can before as well as immediately afterwards to ensure people are safe and they have what they need, particularly drinking water and sanitation. Yeah, those first needs that are needed once an emergency hits.

Cindy Kushner: But Zimbabwe’s very interesting, because part of the country is very vulnerable to heavy rain, storms and cyclones, and the other part of the country is in drought. And so probably, you know, similar to kind of challenges you have in Colorado and in the western US. We go long periods with not enough water and in a place where we rely on groundwater, the water that’s under the ground as opposed to surface water and rainfall, the rainfall recharges the underground water. And if there’s not that rainfall, then that water’s not getting recharged, and then when we go to pump it out, it’s either not there, or it’s deeper and deeper and deeper, which is more and more and more expensive. And particularly, in Zimbabwe, in contrast to the western US is that the population’s quite sparse. And so, you have small communities dotting the landscape as opposed to huge populations where you can justify a much larger investment. And so, it’s very difficult to build a huge water system for a couple hundred people. But those couple hundred people all over the place . And so if, you know, if we can make sure that people do have the water they need for all their household needs, but also their community gardens or, if they have livestock, making sure their livestock can have enough water to drink, then you can really start talking about change. And you can, people can have economic opportunities instead of spending five hours a day walking to get water, because there’s one borehole really far away. So, it’s really quite life changing, and we’re always trying to do the best we can to say what is the level that people need to thrive, not just survive.

Jocelyn Hittle: Maybe we could take a step back, and let’s talk a little bit about, and I’ll use a water analogy, what are the buckets of your work? I don’t wanna characterize it wrong, so maybe you could give us like, what are the major categories of the work that you’re doing?

Cindy Kushner: Sure, and I think that’s very much the way we look at it is, is what we call an enabling environment or strengthening the systems. So, we need to have policies again in this country. We have, you know, the National Water Act, and you know, federal and state policies, strategies. You need to know what you’re gonna do and what’s gonna guide your investment. What, what, you know, what do you need to do? Who needs to do what? What capacities do you need? So we work on that side. We need monitoring because, it’s about the most boring thing you could talk about is monitoring, but if you don’t know who has water and who doesn’t, how are you targeting your resources, right?

Jocelyn Hittle: Very important part of decision making.

Cindy Kushner: Very important part of decision making. And so, sort of having that data and making sure you’re translating that data into information and knowledge. So within the enabling environment, we have the policy side, we have the monitoring side, and then budgeting, right? So, you know, government budgeting is a long complex process. And what we’re really, you know, we, as UNICEF, we do a lot of implementation. We do build things. There’s a lot of partners around the world that do things, NGOs and nonprofits, all sorts of different organizations. But the main funder of water sanitation hygiene is the government, whether it’s local governments or national governments. And so we, and that’s the only truly sustainable way to do that, because nonprofits and external funding come and go, but the government needs to be the one to stay. And obviously, the government doesn’t always have the resources, and we all need to support that. But for UNICEF, our goal is to support the government to do its job. And in this country and in Zimbabwe and any country, it is the government’s responsibility to provide drinking water, sanitation, and hygiene. There’s not too many that would disagree with that, but it’s not easy. And so for UNICEF, we really focus on enabling environment and aiming to work ourselves out of the job of the more nuts and bolts. And the other pieces of it, so the enabling environment, but also supply, and so that’s where we put in infrastructure. And also, and again, whether that means we’re building a water system, we’re putting in a borehole, and whether we work with a local partner, an NGO, or we work with the local government, ’cause maybe they do have the capacities, don’t have the money. But also, when we talk about toilets, it isn’t about someone else building them. No one walks into your house and builds your toilet when you built your house. And so, it’s about saying, look, do you have the products you need to build a toilet? Or do you need to go six hours to the main town? They’re probably not gonna build a toilet if you don’t have a lot of money, and you certainly can’t, you can barely afford a bag of cement. You certainly can’t afford the six hour trip and the transport costs. So trying to make sure that people have what they need to do what is the household responsibility, but also that they all have the knowledge, and they demand to have a toilet. They demand to have water supply. So yeah, so we work on the enabling environment, supply and demand, and that’s kind of the three buckets we put it into.

Cindy Kushner: And again, when we’re in an emergency situation, because UNICEF works in, we have huge programs in Afghanistan, and Yemen, South Sudan, and in Ukraine right now. So there’s places where there’s conflict, but there’s also places where there’s huge natural disasters. So whether it’s in Zimbabwe after Cyclone Idai where we, again, we don’t on a regular basis try to kind of just provide the service. We try to work with the government to provide the service, or the partners, but when there’s a massive cyclone, then it isn’t, the needs are just so great, and the systems break down. And again, I mean we, again, we saw this in the hurricane in New Orleans, you know. There are just times where it’s just too much pressure for the ongoing system, and you have to bring in outsiders.

Jocelyn Hittle: So Cindy, can you tell us a little bit more about UNICEF and how the WASH work that you’re doing fits within the organization’s broader mission?

Cindy Kushner: Sure, so UNICEF is United Nations Children’s Fund. We are a part of the United Nations, which is sort of the body of the countries in the world and member states. So we’re in the governance, but we have that very specific mandate of children and their families, making sure that children’s needs are met. And so, we work in various sectors, I would say, but basically making sure that children have what they need to survive and thrive. So we work on education systems, we work on health systems. And again, there’s, we’ve all heard of WHO now with COVID, and the World Health Organization is a really important, but UNICEF really work is to ensure health systems for children. Malnutrition, again, child nutrition. There’s a huge, there’s, you know, we all, we’ve seen photos of starving children and very, very thin, and that’s severe malnutrition. That’s not, that is a very much a fundamental problem, especially where you have conflict and people are moving, they just don’t have the coping mechanisms, but we also have stunting, which is basically that children are not getting a nutritious diet, so we’re working on stunting and making sure that children are both mentally and physically developing as healthy children. And we work on water, sanitation, hygiene, which kind of underpins all of that in terms of, you know, you can’t have good health if you have diarrhea all the time from drinking contaminated water. You can’t have good nutrition if you always have diarrhea, and you’re not absorbing the nutrition. You can’t, you know, going to school without a toilet, or simply being, drinking contaminated water. Not being able to go to school is the problem, but also when you go to school, making sure that there’s drinking water, there’s toilets, there’s hand washing facilities. But also making sure that, that when we talk about, you know, what are good hygiene practices and good sanitation, we need to be working in schools, ’cause that’s the time to teach people when they’re young.

Jocelyn Hittle: So a lot of what you’re describing as it relates to WASH is really that, that water and sanitation piece really is an underpinning for so many of the other goals that UNICEF has. And I think we tend to take for granted in the US and in other more developed countries, you know, these are things we don’t really think about. We don’t think about where your water is coming from, whether or not you have access to sanitation, you know. It allows us to go about our day-to-day life in a very different way than people who are really concerned about that, who are spending hours getting access to clean water, et cetera. So, it does seem like the international space is, in some places, quite different from work on water that are happening here in the States. That said, there are aspects of water and sanitation that are still real challenges across the US, and one of the places that the Spur campus is focused on is kind of the arid American west. Maybe you can talk a little bit about some of the places around the world that you see having similar challenges to water access and supply and some of the ways that UNICEF is addressing those challenges in some of those drier places.

Cindy Kushner: Around the world, climate change is, you know, the, you know, climate change is sort of first felt through water. Well, drinking water is the most basic need there is, and it is absolutely being felt there. And so, so yeah, so you know, in the American west, you have water restrictions, right? And, and you know, you don’t lose water, though. You can still turn on your tap and you know, you’re just asked not to water your lawn or run your washing machine certain hours and things like that. But, you know, if you’re in arid Zimbabwe, and you have a borehole, and the water table is no longer, you know, where it used to be, right? So, you know, you put a borehole in under ground, and there’s a water table sort of, you know. It may be 30 yards down, and if it rains less and less and less, that water table keeps going down and down and down. Suddenly, your borehole just doesn’t reach the water. We gotta drill a new one. You need to have money for that. And, with climate change, we just need to keep, you know, drilling deeper and deeper and is that sustainable or are we overexploiting the aquifers and the groundwater? This is very much an issue that you have in the west. How much water do you have? And when it changes, all the things that you built around that presumption start to change. They either become, you know, in the US that tends to be they become more expensive. And then, you know, you maybe don’t have the same industries in the same place, because it’s no longer economically viable to have those industries. Or you keep spending more and more money to bring water from further and further away. You know, there’s a lot of effort to manage the demand and to bring in more water saving technology, just a lot of innovation that comes from these kind of changes. And that’s what we see here in the US, and when we talk about, you know, the arid parts of Zimbabwe, we’re talking about things a lot more basic, a lot more simple. The use of the water is just not as complex. There’s not enough water to have built industry in the first place. And again, we can, there are dams, and there is surface water in other parts of the country. We can put in bigger pipelines and bring it, but again, it’s expensive. And so, at the end of the day, climate change is really exacerbating the economic challenges of moving water, treating water, finding water in the first place.

Jocelyn Hittle: Thank you, you’ve hit on so many different complexities within the WASH environment, particularly in the work that you do. I’m wondering if you could tell us a little bit about what it means to have your particular position. What is a day in the life for the Chief of Climate Resilient Wash at UNICEF?

Cindy Kushner: I mean, I do a lot of different things in a day, and fundamentally, I’m a manager, and I would like to, I hope I’m a leader as well of my team and in my role that I play, but I, sorry, fundamentally, I manage resources. I manage people, I manage money, and I try to make, lead the strategy of how to use those resources. Fundamentally, I’m a manager, and a leader in the space that I’m working. So I manage resources. I have partners. We have a team of about 13 people making sure that each of them has a clear role and responsibility. They each have accountability for the work that they do. They know what they need to do. They have fair expectations. They’re really with their expectations so that they’re able to do their job, and I’m able to support them in the way that they need to, that they can work independently and achieve their work, and that they can call on me for what they need, be it technical guidance or, you know, I do work in a bureaucracy, and sometimes you have to kind of use a bit of hierarchy to get through, get business made, get papers signed, and things like that. It’s also my job to navigate all that, to enable them to do their jobs fundraising and making sure that we both have the money to spend as well as to spend it. And with that comes relations with the, the people who fund us as well as the partners that we work with. And I am a huge, huge believer, for me, this is really core to my work, which is the whole has to be greater than the sum of all parts. And I don’t think that UNICEF has all the answers. I don’t think any one organization has all the answers, all the capacities, all the expert expertise, all the credibility, to affect the change as needed. It’s a complex space. And so, for me, it’s about building partnerships with those that complement us, and say, okay, this is what we do. For me as a person, as a supervisor, as a manager, as a leader, it’s, you know, recognizing what you do well and what your strengths are and what others do well and how you bring that together. So whether I, I bring that into my daily work, but I also try to bring that to my, sort of, how I lead the team. I do a lot of working with the government to create more senior levels and making sure that, again, that my team is able to influence the policies and the budgeting. I work closely with my health colleagues because again, if we could end, you know, diarrheal disease, or at least the WASH-related diarrheal disease, our health colleagues would have a whole lot less work to do in treating people and curing diseases, similarly with nutrition. So it’s really about partnerships within UNICEF and other expertise with the government and working very closely with them and supporting them to achieve their agenda. Working with our other partners that really are managing the resources, managing the partnerships, developing all that and providing strategy.

Jocelyn Hittle: Yeah, so you’ve hit on some buckets of work that you do, and those are buckets that I think are maybe common across folks who are in a level of position that is similar to yours, policy work, advocacy work, partnerships, fundraising, management of your team. And I guess I would be curious to hear a little bit, let’s transition a little to sort of what’s your journey to this point in time, right? Because you’re now in a management role within this WASH space. You have not always been in that role. Can you tell us briefly kind of what’s the, what was the journey that got you, I don’t know, when you were a kid, was this something you were dreaming of? I wanna work internationally? Like what was the?

Cindy Kushner: This is very far away from where I was as a kid.

Jocelyn Hittle: Right, so, and that’s really common, right? We don’t, most of us have unexpected journeys. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about your unexpected journey.

Cindy Kushner: Sure, and I, you know, I mean I work with a lot of people whose, whose parents worked in this industry as it were, and so they were exposed to international development, and they were exposed to working and moving around, and I was not at all. I grew up in the suburbs of Boston, but I just, you know, I always loved traveling, and I really wanted to be a teacher, all growing up. Nothing else. I had a laser focus on being a teacher. And I, when I applied to university, I even applied to education schools. I think, you know, talk about a pivotal moment, because I applied to the University of Michigan School of Education, and I received back a letter that said, well, you have, you can come in the school of education when you’re a junior, but we’ll let you into the liberal arts college. I just thought, wow, they let me in. I couldn’t even figure out the application process. They let me in. So I was in Michigan, and I pretty quickly realized, like, I don’t wanna be a teacher. I, you know, what I understood teaching to be was like staying in school and you know, getting your tenure, and being in one place. And I thought, well that, you know, I love to travel, I love to meet new people, and I’m not sure that is what I want to do. And so pretty quickly, I’m quite glad that I didn’t go into an education school there, arts school, because I ended up majoring in political science, which was kind of interesting to me, of kind of how decisions get made, and what the implications are, and critical thinking. I just found my way to DC ’cause it seemed like the place to go, but not with a great deal of clarity, but again, still with this idea of traveling. And so, I ended up working for a consulting company who influenced international development programs. And then it got me in to see what it was all about, and I found my way overseas.

Cindy Kushner: I found my way into emergency work first, which has a huge gratification. Like people need water, here’s your water. What I came to see pretty quickly is that there’s a lot of constraints that are beyond the community level. And so, after years of really working at that community level, I kind of started to wanna reach and influence at a higher level of saying, okay, well, these communities are all constrained by the fact that the government’s not investing, or that there’s no information at the government level to make a decision about what to invest in. And so I just, over my career, I just started to kind of reach into the more fundamental challenges and with that, moving, say, up just in terms of the governance level structures. You have your national government or local government, down to the community. And so, I worked my way from the bottom up and kinda mocking said, okay, well here, district level. You know, it’s not just the community communities that need to be supported by the local authorities. Okay, let’s work with the local authorities and how do they do that? But it’s like, well, they’re not resourced adequately, and they don’t have the policies to guide them. The capacities keep going up, and I actually went, my previous, one of the previous roles was actually working at UNICEF headquarters and leading a global partnership of governance of countries, of NGOs, and really coordinating a conversational dialogue around how do we fundamentally, what is common across countries, and what are the common ways to move forward? And you know, governments need to be in the lead. There needs to be one clear agenda than everybody working on their own in silos. And so, I kind of reached this, you know, pinnacle of hierarchy with the global policy dialogue and learned a great deal, and it was fascinating. But at the same time, always kind of yearning to come back down to Earth. But for me, what motivates me is that feel of getting the government to make a decision and passing it to everyone . I think as international organizations, we can contribute, but we don’t solve problems. You know, if we can solve the problem today, it’ll, you know, if we didn’t, you know, if the fundamental issues are not addressed, the problem just comes back. And so, I’m much more interested in taking time.

Jocelyn Hittle: One of the things I’m hearing you say that I think is really interesting is, and I think might be particularly interesting if, for a young person who’s sort of thinking about a career path, that you started at a grassroots level, right, at a community level and then worked at a variety of different scales and on a, kind of coming at the same problem from a variety of different perspectives or lenses, right? There’s one, the immediate gratification you’re talking about. You need water, I’m handing you water. Two, there’s a systemic or foundational problem that we’re seeking to change at a different scale. So I think it’s really, I wonder if you could, could talk a little bit about, you know, the, this is true across a lot of different career paths too, right, the scale at which, and the which, are you focused on the complex systemic problem, or are you focused on the more immediate problem? And I think throughout the course of one’s career, one might pick and choose once you’ve been exposed to all of those different scales and approaches, you might find one that feels like the right fit and try to settle yourself in that space.

Cindy Kushner: Yeah, exactly. And again, it was, you know, I, my approach to my career early on was always, you know, do what you enjoy and then, when it’s no longer challenging, find something more. And that worked for a really long time for me. At a certain point, though, I hit a level of seniority where you, you need to be a bit more deliberate in defining what you wanna do next and be building those skills before you get there. And so, that was a bit of a wake up call for me that sort of like, I, you know, I’m just going to be driven by my, not so…

Jocelyn Hittle: Curiosity, and your interest.

Cindy Kushner: Passion, my satisfaction. And I just, you know, and I always found opportunity through hard work, and delivering, and having a reputation for myself, and being able to advance. But, that wasn’t enough to keep advancing, because I wasn’t necessarily recognizing what the next role needed. So I think there’s sort of two things here. One is, is what is my personal pathway and how do you move through, not just a hierarchy by any means, but you know, again, it’s, you know, for me the sort of governance that is kind of stacked, hierarchically, in the government system. So, you know, where do you wanna influence? Where do you feel energized? And I feel energized from, you know, a great meeting with a key decision-maker as much as I do from a community getting water, because that community, there’s 200 people in that community got water, and that’s amazing. But when that decision-maker makes a decision to put in a budget of $20 million, it’s not gonna happen tomorrow. But that’s, that is the thing that will make a difference to thousands and thousands of people. And so, that takes time, that takes a different skill set, but that’s exciting for me.

Jocelyn Hittle: You’ve been working over the course of your career in a variety of different places. How many different countries?

Cindy Kushner: Long term, sort of more than a year, I think I’ve been in, I was in Timor-Leste for a total of five years. I was in Rwanda for three and a half years. I feel like I’m skipping something. I was in Albania in 2000, but that was less than a year, just because our funding ran out, so I had to leave. I’ve been Zimbabwe for a year and a half. I was in UNICEF headquarters for around 10 years. So there was a point where you also have to find balance in your life. And my parents were aging, and so I decided I needed to come back to the US. I’m from the East Coast and so I, you know, I was able to still do the work and advance my career and you know, work in WASH, which is my passion, but also be there for my family. And so, Skype and Zoom and all these things definitely have helped a lot more than… Early in my career, when I was in Albania, I got 10 minutes call for 10 minutes a month to call somebody at home, or in Timor, let’s say, it’s an island country, and I was in a town that didn’t have, really, a network, but I was about 45 minutes away from the city, and so if I drove 20 minutes, and I walked out onto this one spot on the beach, that would get the signal from the city. I could call the US. I could talk to my mom.

Jocelyn Hittle: So you’ve mentioned some of the challenges of working and living internationally. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about what you love about it.

Cindy Kushner: Sure, I mean there is so much and again, I think that’s the choice that me and my husband, my family made to keep doing this work. Is it, you know, the traveling is amazing where, you know, we live in Africa, and so when we go away for a few days or a week, you know, we go down to Florida from the East Coast, we go to California. We had to stop in Africa, Kenya, and which is amazing beaches, and see all sorts of new things and animals. That’s a huge part of it, but also just being able to get to know people of an entirely different experience. And you know, the people that I work with are just tremendous and working with people in different cultures, different settings, their experiences growing up and how they got to where they are is just a constant learning opportunity and opportunity for reflection on yourself and your place in the world. And that is just something that really, really keeps me going.

Jocelyn Hittle: So Cindy, can you tell us where people can find more information about UNICEF, and particularly the WASH work that you’re doing, social media, websites, et cetera?

Cindy Kushner: Sure, so UNICEF is a large global international organization. unicef.org, U-N-I-C-E-F dot O-R-G. There’s plenty of information there about WASH as well as some areas we work in. There’s also, for US particularly, while we are part of the UN, UNICEF is also affiliated with, and sort of has, as part of its structure, is that we have national committees in many countries. And so, while the UN doesn’t sort of work here as the UN, we do have our sister agency UNICEF USA, which does a lot of advocacy work for children here in the US, as well as fundraising with the public. You can also go to unicefusa.org, which is part of our UNICEF structure where we have a nonprofit organization here in the US, which also advocates for children here in the US, as well as fundraises for UNICEF.

Jocelyn Hittle: Great.

Cindy Kushner: But then there is a wide, wide social media presence for both UNICEF and UNICEF USA.

Jocelyn Hittle: Great, thank you. So we’ll also link to those resources in the show notes if anyone wants more information about UNICEF and the WASH work in particular. So now we have come to the very final question I have for you, which is our Spur of the Moment question. So, you have traveled quite a bit, but I’m curious if there is a place that you have always wanted to travel that you have not yet been.

Cindy Kushner: That is interesting one. There are a couple. There’s actually three, I think. And interestingly, that I spent a lot of time in Asia and a lot of time in Africa. I would love to see the aurora borealis, the northern lights, and so that is on my bucket list. I’ve never been to Scotland and hiked the Highlands. That is on my bucket list. And there’s a pilgrimage that goes through Spain and Portugal, and I always get the name wrong, so I won’t try to say it correctly, but, it is my goal one day to, probably not do the whole thing, but to do the, to do at least a part of that walk. Those are my three bucket list.

Jocelyn Hittle: That’s Camino de Santiago, that the one you?

Cindy Kushner: Exactly, thank you.

Jocelyn Hittle: Yes, it’s on my list as well that. The idea of a walking vacation sounds like the right speed, but also includes a different way of seeing all of those places, right? So I really, I love that idea, too. Cindy, thank you so much for your time today. We really appreciate you being a guest on CSU’s “Spur of the Moment”, and hope that our paths cross again soon.

Cindy Kushner: That would be wonderful. Thank you so much.

Jocelyn Hittle: The CSU “Spur of the Moment” podcast is produced by Kevin Samuelson, and our theme music is by Ketsa. Please visit the show notes for links mentioned in this episode. We hope you’ll join us in two weeks for the next episode. Until then, be well.